tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2316287167964751654.post1834014213417342806..comments2023-07-30T01:30:51.715-07:00Comments on Witch.Words: Carrying the Burdens of Proof (And How Not To Prove Things)Jadelynhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11119504965056881450noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2316287167964751654.post-34087083465730873722010-03-26T20:38:09.504-07:002010-03-26T20:38:09.504-07:00Okay, that was a twitter conversation, did you ser...Okay, that was a twitter conversation, did you seriously expect me to make a full argument in 140 characters or less? That's just ridiculous. Yes, I have sources to back me up. And I didn't see you making any effort at formulating a legitimate argument beyond repeating "no it doesn't" over and over again. We're all guilty sis, don't delude yourself with the idea that you're so much better. So here, have some more evidence- an excerpt from the Washington Post dated April 21st, 2009, <br /><br />"Consider the Justice Department memo of May 30, 2005. It notes that "the CIA believes 'the intelligence acquired from these interrogations has been a key reason why al Qaeda has failed to launch a spectacular attack in the West since 11 September 2001.' . . . In particular, the CIA believes that it would have been unable to obtain critical information from numerous detainees, including [Khalid Sheik Mohammed] and Abu Zubaydah, without these enhanced techniques." The memo continues: "Before the CIA used enhanced techniques . . . KSM resisted giving any answers to questions about future attacks, simply noting, 'Soon you will find out.' " Once the techniques were applied, "interrogations have led to specific, actionable intelligence, as well as a general increase in the amount of intelligence regarding al Qaeda and its affiliates." Specifically, interrogation with enhanced techniques "led to the discovery of a KSM plot, the 'Second Wave,' 'to use East Asian operatives to crash a hijacked airliner into 'a building in Los Angeles." KSM later acknowledged before a military commission at Guantanamo Bay that the target was the Library Tower, the tallest building on the West Coast. The memo explains that "information obtained from KSM also led to the capture of Riduan bin Isomuddin, better known as Hambali, and the discovery of the Guraba Cell, a 17-member Jemmah Islamiyah cell tasked with executing the 'Second Wave.' " In other words, without enhanced interrogations, there could be a hole in the ground in Los Angeles to match the one in New York."<br /><br />How about that? Oh wait, you won't accept that as being true because it's from "teh evil CIA/Military/Government". In no way do I condone torture because of its inhumane nature, but at least I'm willing to admit when a distasteful tactic proves useful.The Brother (Big Brother? lol)noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2316287167964751654.post-22099698731531775732010-03-26T13:29:40.138-07:002010-03-26T13:29:40.138-07:00Yeah, that's kind of where I was going with th...Yeah, that's kind of where I was going with that. They intend to lie about it anyways, or sweep it under the rug and wash their hands of it; why not go the whole 9 yards on it?The Exnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2316287167964751654.post-72080158474113768322010-03-26T12:37:44.194-07:002010-03-26T12:37:44.194-07:00I suppose if politicians/the military want to make...I suppose if politicians/the military want to make like movie villains, which they already seem inclined toward...Jadelynhttp://witch-words.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2316287167964751654.post-35672539690910564872010-03-26T12:31:49.170-07:002010-03-26T12:31:49.170-07:00Well, I'm sure torturing the individual will a...Well, I'm sure torturing the individual will almost certainly reveal only "take with a grain of salt" information, but I see a lot in movies where the villains/heroes know that and instead hold something/someone they care about over the figurative shark tank unless they spill. I don't have any hard proof, other than doing a search for the excuse "I had to! They were going to hurt [insert family member, friend, pet, most favoritest thing in the world]!" So, I don't push this as a truth, only what I'd speculate to be more effective than physical or (other) psychological tortures. Point the gun where it will be most effective. Also, read the Evil Overlord list, it covers all of this, sheesh people.The Exnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2316287167964751654.post-6982834025629870592010-03-26T05:24:18.301-07:002010-03-26T05:24:18.301-07:00Thank you for laying that out so eloquently. I...Thank you for laying that out so eloquently. I'd thought of pointing that out - I was aware of the general concept, anyway, of the unreliability of information gleaned from torture - but didn't want to try to boil it down into 160 chars. ;-)Jadelynhttp://witch-words.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2316287167964751654.post-59511820764598866622010-03-19T05:06:22.134-07:002010-03-19T05:06:22.134-07:00Well, he's right, in the sense that informatio...Well, he's right, in the sense that information is generally received from torture.<br /><br />Where he's wrong is that almost none of it can be considered the least bit <i>reliable</i>, because a person being tortured will tell you anything they think you'd like to hear, and as anyone who's ever served in any intelligence-gathering capacity will tell you, unreliable information is worse than useless. <br /><br />It makes you waste resources checking out the random appeasements of a tortured person; it allows them to direct your attention to the wrong things; it removes your ability to feel certain about anything you hear, whether confirming or denying the info you inhumanly received.<br /><br />It's pointless <i>not least</i> because it's ineffective and potentially damaging, as much as because it's inhuman. Duh. <br /><br />Good post, J. :)CaitieCathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04044935117452832240noreply@blogger.com