Damn Indigenous People, Wanting Their Stuff Back!

Time for another round of Privileged People in Comments on the Internet!

A museum in Rouen, France is giving back some Maori skulls to be returned to New Zealand and buried.  The giving back of indigenous peoples' stolen shit - especially human remains, bunch of grave-robbing fucks that European colonial powers so often were - is to be commended.

However, in comments there's a ridiculous "debate" going on about under what circumstances things should be returned to the cultures from which they were stolen, with an extremely strong "How dare they try to take back what we rightfully stole?" vibe going on. Several commenters were happy to 'splain how we can give the occasional skull or body back for reburial without having to give back the rest of their stuff:

I'm thinking the best compromise would be for France to rewrite their policy on returning artifacts to differentiate between human remains and other artifacts. ... That would let people honor their dead ancestors and treat/bury their remains respectfully without emptying France's museums and research collections.

Um, why should we be against the emptying of France's museums of stolen artifacts?  Because the museums have some kind of *right* to the artifacts of other cultures stolen during imperialist expansions, so long as they're not human remains?  Fuck that noise.  I get that the point of museums is to allow ordinary people to have exposure to cultures and experiences beyond their everyday reach.  But you know?  Technology is a very cool thing.  We can make reproductions, have multimedia presentations, all kinds of interesting ways we can give people the experience of a thing from another culture, without having to have the actual stolen item in question there for people to look at. 

Maybe a better compromise would be that human remains would be "loaned" back to their native nations under the conditions that they be buried in keeping with the traditional burial rites either of the dead's era or of the current norm for what would likely be their descendants and if the conditions weren't met (the bodies weren't reburied promptly or properly or maintained inadequately) then France would be able to claim them back. That would make it so that people that felt like their ancestors were being denied a proper burial or their culture was being disrespected by the remains being displayed would be able to be pleased, but the nations that just wanted money makers for their own museums and specimens for their own researchers wouldn't be encouraged to take back remains. [emphasis mine]

Oh the horror!  Those selfish cultures, wanting to be the ones to make money off the display of their own artifacts!  The only thing worse than that, of course, is researchers wanting to be able to study their own ancient cultures!  Apparently, if you are a formerly-colonized culture who had a bunch of your history stolen by zealous white archaeologists, the ONLY ACCEPTABLE REASON to want those things back is for reburial.  Otherwise, France (and other colonial powers) is perfectly entitled to profit from and perform research studies on the things they rightfully stole, and to want those tourism dollars for your own economy is just selfish.

If we can teach children not to take things that aren't theirs, and tell them to give things back if they do succumb to temptation...why can't we act on these morals as adults, when it comes to the ancient treasures of whole other cultures? 

Why Anti-Porn Feminists Annoy The Fuck Out Of Me

So I've really gotten into this tumblr thing lately.  It's like the ultimate in people-watching.  I get to see all these amazing conversations go by, commentary from half a dozen people on very big issues - things like language reclamation, labels, sex work, sex positivity, etc - and it's fascinating and while I don't say much, I like being able to see all this happen.  

One of my favorite tumblrs is fuckyeahfeminists.  Last week, there was a series of posts that was basically a conversation between fuckyeahfeminists and this other person on the merits of sex work, and the porn/prostitution industries as inherently degrading to women.  Well, I say a conversation on the merits, but basically it was this person sanctimoniously moralizing about how sex workers are only doing it because they've been abused and blah blah blah.  Here's the first post that caught my eye:

comicbooksandallthatjazz:  you didnt reply to my last post about the sex industry, for whatever reason, and thats fine - but do you not have any issue whatsoever with the fact that the sex industry IS opression? just because it looks as though the women are enjoying it doesnt mean its right, or that its healthy - its psychologically damaging and its wrong to sell a persons body and soul just to get money. Again, as i said in the last post i sent to you, i think because these women are humans above all, we need to respect them so much that we don't allow this industry to thrive. they deserve more than to have sex with random men for money, way more. to back this undustry up is to back up opression, and that is not true feminism. this blog cant claim to celebrate anti opression when you are celebrating it every time you post a sex inudustry positive post. a person is not a prude or anti woman for not supporting the sex industry, they are humanitarian, and it has nothing to do with 'to each his/her own'. once we start making excuses by saying that, nothing gets solved.

Let's go through this and pull out the most egregious fails, shall we?  I'll start with this one:

just because it looks as though the women are enjoying it doesnt mean its right, or that its healthy - its psychologically damaging and its wrong to sell a persons body and soul just to get money.

"Bodies and souls?" I must admit I've never heard of a line of sex work in which one sells one's immortal soul as well as sexual services.   Yeah, I would say that's a bit off, if I thought it actually happened.  But what's really going on here, is someone making moralistic judgments that selling sexual services is the same as selling one's soul.  Also the idea that a sex worker is "selling hir body".  I hate that phrase, I really do.  It's such bullshit.  A sex worker is not "selling hir body".  Zie may be selling sexual services, but that does not make one's body itself the item for sale, as if the body no longer belongs to hir anymore once zie has used it for sexual labor in exchange for money.  Just...ugh.  What a fucked-up approach to the issue.  Also, "just because it looks like they're enjoying it"?  So now you're psychic, and you can look past their apparent enjoyment and read the abject misery that is inherently a result of sex work, no matter how much they look like - or even think and profess and believe themselves! - they're enjoying what they do.  Damn, can I hire your psychic powers please?  It'd be really awesome to be able to look at total strangers and know for sure what they're really feeling accords with my worldview. 

 i think because these women are humans above all, we need to respect them so much that we don't allow this industry to thrive.

Why yes, let's respect these women so much that we take away their best or preferred or chosen or sometimes only means of making a living and supporting themselves and sometimes also their families!  I know when I really respect someone, I show it by overriding their decisions about how to run their lives because I know what's best for them.  It's a very respectful thing to do. 

they deserve more than to have sex with random men for money, way more.

If they are only doing it because they must, then yes, I wholeheartedly agree.  Everyone deserves better than to be stuck in a shitty job they don't want because they have to do what they have to do in order to survive.  I just don't think the way to make that happen is by sanctimoniously sneering at what they have to do in order to survive, and advocating forcing them out of business without offering a decent alternative. 

to back this industry up is to back up opression, and that is not true feminism. this blog cant claim to celebrate anti opression when you are celebrating it every time you post a sex inudustry positive post.

"Feminism: ur doin it rong, cuz u disagree with me."  The funny thing is, I kind of agree with the point that the industry itself is fucked up. Most parts of sex industry are oppressive and kyriarchal.  But I don't agree that they way to fix that is to shame women who take part in it.

fuckyeahfeminists responded, of course.  Short and sweet and to the point:

I don’t think that I am celebrating oppression by putting a post that recognizes the humanity of others. If you think that I am, that is your prerogative, but I totally disagree that you think I’m celebrating anything except human beings.

Well said.  Of course, comicbooksandallthatjazz couldn't just leave it there...

now, i agree that sex workers should be humanized - this is precisely what i am trying to do here, to humanize them so much that we are not seeing them as pieces of meat that just love to have sex so much that they cant wait to get payed for it. Every choice in life has a psychological root, and many take this choice in life because they have been conditioned to respect this action just as little girls have grown up wanting to be like disney princesses because it has been conditioned into us that this is what a REAL woman is like. Young women today are also being taught that if you do not agree with the sex industry or gratuitous sex in film and music videos, that you are anti sex or a prude. This is not the case, and i am getting pretty tired of this judgemental train of thought.

...

what i meant in fact was that many experience sexual abuse before going into the industry, which causes them to seek the industry out in the first place, as a kind of repetition compulsion. I personally don't think it's healthy, i think they need encouragement on how to get out of the industry, whether theyve had traumatic past experiences or not. The way forward isnt to encourage the trade, but to acknowledge that it is exploitative. I also know that people have differring experiences on this subject, and its kinda touchy - but coming from a humanitarian outlook i really cant stick by it as a positive choice for women..

Oh, dear.

this is precisely what i am trying to do here, to humanize them so much that we are not seeing them as pieces of meat that just love to have sex so much that they cant wait to get payed for it.

I, um...what?  I can't even make this make sense.  Has it ever occurred to comicbooksandallthatjazz to, I dunno, STFU and listen to sex workers assert their own humanity, instead of this weirdly coercive process of forcible "humanization", by which zie really means "push them to conform to my idea of appropriate sexual values and mores"?  Probably not, and I find that actually kind of scary and gross in addition to headdesk-inducing.  Also, whoever said that supporting sex workers who have chosen their trade means "seeing them as pieces of meat etc."?  Personally, I think it's far more humanizing to recognize that people who engage in sex work are people capable of making their own decisions, who do so for a variety of reasons.  Also why is it that we, as a culture, like to encourage people to "do what you love and you'll never work a day in your life" and all that crap, while treating people who enjoy sex and exchange those services for money like the lowest of the low?  What's wrong with loving sex so much you want to get paid for having it, if that aligns with your values and works for your life?  Why is this automatically a bad thing, a less-than-human thing?  Because when you posit "humanizing" as the process of "no longer thinking sex workers enjoy sex so much they want to get paid for it", you are automatically and inherently implying that "enjoying sex so much you want to get paid for it" is a less-than-human position which people need to be "humanized" away from.  Ick ick ick.  I seem to have gotten coercive imposition of individual moral values onto other people regardless of their own beliefs all over me.  Someone hand me a paper towel please.

Every choice in life has a psychological root ... what i meant in fact was that many experience sexual abuse before going into the industry, which causes them to seek the industry out in the first place, as a kind of repetition compulsion.

Oh. For. Fuck's. Sake.  And here we have the old chestnut of "You're only doing it because you were abused."  As if being a survivor/victim of abuse automatically invalidates any sexual choices you make thereafter - at least, any choices that the judging person disagrees with.  This kind of weird savior complex comicbooksandallthatjazz has going on is getting creepier and creepier. 

I personally don't think it's healthy,

How nice for you.  Do you even stop to consider what actual sex workers themselves feel is healthy in their lives?  Of course not...

i think they need encouragement on how to get out of the industry, whether theyve had traumatic past experiences or not.

Don't worry, sex workers!  comicbooksandallthatjazz is coming to save you from yourselves, whether you like it or not!  Zie doesn't care why you're doing what you do, it's not healthy and zie will make you stop for your own good!  Moar exclamation points!!!

coming from a humanitarian outlook i really cant stick by it as a positive choice for women.

Then don't.  But it's still not your fucking choice to make, so STFU.  Also please stop claiming it's somehow "humanitarian" to devalue sex workers and overlook/deny their individual agency and choices.  "Helping" people against their will is not actually helping.

Out of curiosity, as I reread through all of this bullshit, I wonder if this person has ever thought that there are, in fact, people involved in sex work other than women?  That there are sex workers who are women, and also sex workers who are men, and who are non-binary as well?  Given that, is it only women for whom sex work is badnastydangerouswrongunhuman?  Or is it everyone?  If it's everyone, then why the assumptive references to women throughout the conversation?  If it's not everyone, but specifically women, well, yeah, you sound like a sexist douchewad who's perpetuating a sexual double-standard.

Honestly, now.  Is it really that much to ask that we listen to and respect the voices of the people who actually do the work we're talking about, when we talk about sex work?  This kind of talking-over bullshit absolutely epitomizes one of the worst failings of white Western mainstream feminism, the savior complex that utterly denies the work and feminisms of everyone but the mainstream capital-F Feminists.  And it needs to fucking stop.  Yesterday.